In the latest episode of the Branded podcast, we talked about the common misconceptions around podcast monetization. One of those is that direct monetization is the only option.
What is direct podcast monetization?
Direct monetization is what it sounds like: making money directly from a podcast. This is what people most often think of regarding monetizing a podcast.
Direct podcast monetization methods can include sponsorships, ads, Patreon contributions, or things like Buy Me a Coffee.
The drawbacks of direct monetization.
Getting ads and sponsors and other forms of financial support for your podcast is great, but in most cases, these methods require a pretty big audience. Ads often follow a CPM, or cost-per-thousand, model and you’ll only bring in a few dollars each month unless you’re getting thousands of downloads.
Having a very niche audience can make securing sponsors much easier, but I’m talking super niche, like vertical farming.
Removing the podcast from a vacuum.
One of the reasons (in my opinion) that we mostly focus on direct monetization is that we tend to look at a podcast in a vacuum. I am creating this podcast, now where is my return on investment?
Instead, we need to look at our podcast as one tool in our marketing toolbox. How is the podcast creating further opportunities to market our company?
Understanding indirect podcast monetization.
When we start looking at the podcast from a broader marketing lens, we can start to see how it plays with other aspects of our business development. The profitable opportunities that stem from having a podcast can be indirectly attributed to the show itself.
This could mean:
- turning a host or a guest into a client
- converting a lead that began as a listener
- getting booked to speak at an event due to your show’s presence
- gaining clients from audiences of shows you’ve guested on
When we take a step back and stop looking at our podcasts as independent efforts, we can see far more opportunities to monetize than we saw before.
Listen to the full episode for more discussion around these topics!
Larry Roberts [00:00:09]:
What is happening, everybody. I’m Larry Roberts.
Sara Lohse [00:00:12]:
And I’m Sara Lohse. And this is Branded, your comprehensive guide to creative branding.
Larry Roberts [00:00:16]:
And on this episode, we’re going to talk about the misconception that you can start a podcast and just right out of the gate start making loads and loads of money.
Sara Lohse [00:00:28]:
It’s not even just the misconception, it’s the goal that I think is really something we should dig into. And when you start a podcast thinking, okay, how do I monetize? You’re really going at it the wrong way.
Larry Roberts [00:00:42]:
Well, I mean, you kind of have to have a brand first in order to even have that perspective that you can start a show and your brand is going to maintain a certain level that will allow you to leverage it for monetization.
Sara Lohse [00:00:59]:
Yeah, absolutely. And then it’s also, if you’re going into it as this is something I want to make money off of, you’re not going in it with a mindset of, I want to create fantastic content and I want to create great value for others. You’re just trying to create value for yourself and the content that you put out is going to be a reflection of that, don’t you think?
Larry Roberts [00:01:22]:
Yeah, I mean, this entire show is wrapped around branding and how to create a brand. And if you’re looking to establish yourself and you’re looking to leverage a platform like a podcast to grow that brand, then you have to have your priorities in line. Is it establishing the brand and building a foundation and building a community around that brand, or is it taking the content and making a living off of it? What are you really trying to do? And I think a lot of times we see people come in to start podcast and they end up putting the cart before the horse and they’re going, oh, I want to make money, then I’ll make content to grow my brand. But yes, a podcast, it takes an investment both monetarily and from a time perspective and a creative perspective. It takes an investment from a variety of different perspectives. And a lot of people don’t realize that. They think they show up, they jump on the mic, they talk a little bit, and then there’s just this windfall of cash. And that’s a very twisted perspective, but we have to come on here and we have to start building that brand and building that community and building that foundation, which in turn, over time, we can start leveraging for monetization. But looking at a podcast to be a bankroll, it’s a very disingenuous effort.
Sara Lohse [00:02:51]:
And I think there’s also a huge misconception about how podcasts can be monetized. And the reflex is to think immediately towards sponsorships and to think about ads. But I’ve always looked at it as you can become your own sponsor and you kind of are your own sponsor at the beginning because, I mean, a sponsor is who’s paying for it. So you’re paying for it. But how are you leveraging your show to grow your brand and to grow a company or your business and doing it in a way that can bring you money? And you had said something really interesting, it’s something that you heard at a conference. And I remember it really resonated with you. And so you shared it with me. It was the idea of ROI, of podcasting. Can you dig into that? It was ROI. And podcasting is not return on investment. What is it?
Larry Roberts [00:03:42]:
It’s return on influence. And it’s your impact on those around you and those that are in your industry and your niche. And I’m so thankful that you fed me that line because I was sitting here going, what is she talking about? But it is, it’s a return on influence. That’s exactly what we’re looking for. And once we build that influence, which is also part of building our brand and the influence that our brand has, that’s what opens up those doors. That’s what starts making you a household name or a niche name in your industry. That’s what starts opening up these opportunities for monetization. And I was just sitting here looking it up, and I meant to before we started recording, but I was looking at the average CPM rates for podcasts and right now it’s about $23. So that’s $23 for every thousand downloads that you get. I mean, you have to get a ton of downloads to make any money from that model. So we have to look at it from a different perspective because as much as we want to be in the next Joe Rogan or the next whatever big podcast there is that’s out there, we’re probably not going to get there in the time frame that we’ve given ourselves. I mean, that’s why we see most podcasts. They fall out between episodes three and seven because they get frustrated, they don’t meet their expectations, they don’t start meeting their monetization goals, and they go, well, this podcast thing, this isn’t working for me. But that’s really not the perspective. Again, it’s just like you were saying, Sara. It’s not a return on investment. It’s a return on that influence and how you can start influencing those around you and use that to move forward in growing that brand and growing your business.
Sara Lohse [00:05:25]:
And I think what you just said also brings us back to something we talked about previously, which is comparanoia. And if we are looking at those really huge podcasters and yes, they’re making so much money off of what they’re doing, we’re going to be so disappointed in what we’re doing because we’re not Joe Rogan, because we’re not John Lee Dumas and whoever all of these really big podcasters are. But also, think about the starting point. I mean, if you’re starting your podcast kind of bare bones from the home office you built off of your kitchen like I am, you’re not starting in the same place as Joe Rogan, who already had a platform, already had celebrity. So it’s like you’re comparing jump in there real quick.
Larry Roberts [00:06:12]:
If we dial it all the way back to way back in the day when Joe Rogan started he started on a couch. Him and Brian Redband were doing a podcast from his couch in a living room. So that’s the perspective that so many people miss. And nobody listened to his podcast for years. And going back to what you were just saying, he already had a bit of a platform. He was on what was it, news Radio, I think was the sitcom that he was on.
Sara Lohse [00:06:38]:
He was the announcer for UFC, wasn’t he?
Larry Roberts [00:06:42]:
He started in the UFC at like UFC 14, which was probably around 1995 ish was probably when UFC 14 hit.
Sara Lohse [00:06:49]:
When I was born.
Larry Roberts [00:06:52]:
But anyways, we’re not going to go down that path. But he had already established himself to a certain degree, at least in Hollywood, and he hadn’t quite branched out into the comedy scene yet. But when he started branching out into comedy, for some weird reason, that took off. I still don’t understand how he’s a comedian. But my point there is that even Joe Rogan, who we all look at today and go, I want to be that. I want that $100 million spotify contract. We have to understand that even he started off sitting on a couch in a living room with his very first episode of his podcast. So everybody has to start somewhere, and we’re not going to come right out of the gate and start banking. It just doesn’t work that way.
Sara Lohse [00:07:35]:
It’s also when you compare yourself to these people, you’re not comparing apples to apples because you’re comparing your first chapter to somebody else’s third book. And that’s completely unfair. You’re not comparing equal things. And I even remember one of the times I heard Joe Saul-Sehy speak, and I talk about him all the time because he is the origin of my branded story. And he is the host of Stacking Benjamin’s podcast. And he talks about how he remembers how excited he got when he saw his episode download numbers jump from like 69 to 70. And now he gets that many downloads probably per minute. He is one of the biggest, most successful finance podcasts there are. But when he started, he wasn’t getting downloads either, and he was so excited to see that one additional download. So if we’re comparing to Stacking Benjamins as it is right now, that’s not fair to us because they started the same place that we did. And we need to compare it kind of chronologically, if that makes sense.
Larry Roberts [00:08:48]:
Well, it definitely makes sense, but it’s so hard to keep that in perspective. And you even mentioned JLD or John Lee Dumas. JLD. For those of you in the know, I followed exactly what he did back in the day because I wanted that instant success. And I saw what he was doing because JLD was always very open with exactly how he formatted his show, how he ran his community, how he did everything. He even posted his month to date earnings on his website. You could see exactly what he earned every month on his website. And I thought, well, man, if it works for this cat, it’s going to work for me, right? Because I think that I’m a better interviewer than maybe he is. But neither here nor there. Guess what? It didn’t work. It didn’t work because I’m not JLD. And I did not here’s the real kicker. I did not put in the time. I didn’t put in the dedication. I didn’t put in that commitment. I didn’t put in that consistency, which is I do a lot of podcast audits for folks and they come to me with their shows and they go, larry, my show is not bringing in the money that I wanted to bring in. It’s not bringing in the numbers that I wanted to bring in. Can you help me figure out why? And that’s one of the biggest reasons why people’s podcasts aren’t performing at the level they want them to perform. Because they’re not consistent. And that doesn’t just mean that they’re not consistent in publishing their content on a regular basis, but they’re not consistent in their branding, they’re not consistent in their messaging, they’re not consistent with the type of guests that they have. They’re not consistent with the quality of the content. They’re not consistent with the production quality of the content. And that inconsistency is what leads us down that path to failure.
Sara Lohse [00:10:32]:
I want to switch gears to other ways to monetize, but first I want to jump back to something you said. You said I wanted that kind of instant success. And I think something that we often look at are those overnight successes, those instant successes. And it seems like it’s an instant success or an overnight success because we don’t see the years before that. So we don’t see their story up until we’ve heard their name and we haven’t heard their name until they hit that level of success. But if you look at all types of these celebrities and these comedians, all these people that are quote unquote overnight successes, even with music, these musicians that come out of nowhere and suddenly are touring the world, they only seem like overnight successes because we didn’t see those ten years of grind that they did before people finally heard their name in.
Larry Roberts [00:11:35]:
The food court at the local shopping mall. Exactly.
Sara Lohse [00:11:38]:
Busking in the subways. We don’t see all of that. We just see what happens once they make a name for themselves. So to us, it’s overnight success, but to them, it’s just a new chapter of a career they’ve been working at for, in some cases, decades. So I think that’s something we really need to keep in mind and something that can help us get away from that comparanoia that we talk about is you are comparing yourself just to what you see. You’re not comparing yourself to what you don’t see.
Larry Roberts [00:12:13]:
Well, and I thought it was super powerful. This morning I was perusing Facebook, which is pretty much my daily routine. Wake up and see what’s going on on Facebook, because I’m old, and that’s where old people go. And a friend of mine, Tony Watley of 365 Driven, he posted a video of his very first radio interview, which happened about five years ago. And at that point, he started his podcast, and nobody really knew who he was at the time. But if you look up Tony Watley now, he’s speaking on some of the largest stages there are in the world. And it all started five years ago on that one radio interview that he did. And I thought that was so cool. That was one of the first things I saw this morning, was that message. And it’s funny that it’s playing into this podcast episode here, that honestly, this wasn’t even what we planned on talking about today. We had something else that was in our schedule, our lineup. But you hit me up on a text and go, hey man, let’s talk about this today. And it just fits the whole message of the morning. So I thought this was perfect. And seeing those examples out there, seeing people that we’re friends with, that have put in the time, that have built their brands, that have built their messages and have consistently showed up, and now we see those rewards. I mean, let’s dial it back a little bit for old lair here. Back in 2017. Here it is, 2023. Back in 17, I started doing talks on virtual events. That’s how I first got started speaking. And these virtual events were extremely small. I mean, they were so small that they happened on a Saturday, sometimes even a Sunday morning. And typically I would quote, unquote, speak at about 09:00 A.m., maybe 10:00 A.m.. And they were always on Facebook Live. And if you’ve ever been on Facebook Live, you can look in that top left hand corner up there and you can see exactly how many people were watching. And guess how many people were watching 99% of the time?
Sara Lohse [00:14:06]:
Zero.
Larry Roberts [00:14:07]:
It was a goose egg. Just a big fat goose egg every time. And let me tell you, that stings the old ego just a little bit, because even back then, I put just as much time into those talks that I put into my stage talks today. But over time, by continually showing up, continually building my brand, continually building my message on each and every one of those very small virtual events, they turned into slightly bigger virtual events and even bigger virtual events. Then guess what happened? Small, real live stages started opening up. Then those stages grew. Then those stages grew. And this year, my speaking career has blown up and it’s amazing. But the whole point there is that even six years ago, I started off with a very small event with a very small audience, but I continued to show up and I continued to build the brand, which at the time wasn’t the red hat, it was just my brand of presentation, my brand of speaking. And that in and of itself was a bit of a foundation that continues to evolve and my brand continues to evolve today. But the consistency and the constantly showing up, that’s what makes all the difference in the world.
Sara Lohse [00:15:21]:
And now I want to jump to kind of the we touched on the misconceptions of monetization for a podcast. And I remember I was sitting at, I believe it was Podfest, and I was talking to someone who had been to my presentation at Podfest and she wanted to pick my brain. So we sit down and she says, I have not monetized my show. What am I doing wrong? And I asked her to tell me more and she says, well, it’s connected to my mental health therapy practice and it’s brought me in clients, but I’m not getting sponsors. But it’s brought you in clients? Yeah. But no one’s sponsoring the show. Are the clients paying you? She said yes. How is that not monetization? Monetization doesn’t mean advertising, it doesn’t mean sponsorship, it means bringing in money. So if you’re reaching your target audience and convincing them that you are a really valuable resource for them and they want to give you money in exchange for whatever your service is, but they found you on a podcast, you monetize that podcast. And that is something that people don’t really think about because we only ever talk about ads and sponsorships. I’ve been producing a finance podcast for five years. Have we ever gotten a client from that podcast? No, but it’s opened up opportunities for us to guest on other shows or guests, speak at different events, and those have brought us business. So we wouldn’t have had those opportunities without our podcast. I consider the podcast to be monetized. Do you agree? Is that just in my head?
Larry Roberts [00:17:03]:
No, it’s definitely not just in your head. I mean, there’s different types of monetization. There’s direct monetization where you are seeing an income of some sort from sponsorship or buy me a cup of coffee or patreon or those types of things. Maybe you have a paywall that separates your free content from your bonus content and people are paying you a monthly recurring charge to access that content. But especially today, with the podcast industry at the stage that it’s at, it’s evolved quite a bit over the years. And today indirect monetization is by and far the absolute best and most profitable way to monetize your podcast. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about. The monetization opportunities have come directly from the podcast. They would not have been there if you didn’t have the podcast, but it’s not specifically the podcast that’s bringing it in. It’s you guesting on podcast. It’s you having guests on podcast. It’s converting clients that were guests on the podcast. It’s being on those other podcasts as you mentioned, and then reaching a brand new audience, an entirely different audience, that if you didn’t have a podcast, odds are that host wouldn’t have had you on their podcast and you wouldn’t have had a chance to speak in front of that audience. So indirect monetization is by far the best way and typically the far more profitable way to monetize your podcast.
Sara Lohse [00:18:34]:
I think we tend to, especially for people who are in the podcast space that don’t have the marketing background. And I’m lucky to have gotten into podcasting after already having established a marketing career, so I can kind of see the big picture. But people tend to think of a podcast in a vacuum and a podcast as a marketing tool is a marketing tool. It’s not a marketing plan. It has to play its part in the bigger picture, in the bigger plan. So how are you using that podcast to also promote your products, to promote your services? How are you using it in combination with your social media, in combination with your email marketing? How is everything playing together? And I just had this conversation with someone who was coming to me for help with Podcast Guesting and he said, I’ve been on so many podcasts in the last couple of months, but I haven’t seen a return on it. And I said, okay, what are you doing with those appearances? He just looked at me blank because all he was doing was going on that podcast and relying on that audience to kind of take it from there. And that’s one way to do it. And if it’s a really great podcast with a huge audience, maybe that will work. But there’s so many other steps you need to be taking. You need to be turning that appearance into blogs, you need to be getting it on your website for SEO, you need to be promoting it on your own social media just to show the audience that you already have, that you are an expert in this field and just add that social proof. So it’s not just I have a podcast now give me money, it’s I have a podcast, I use it along with my other resources and I establish myself in the industry.
Larry Roberts [00:20:28]:
And with that, we have to leverage this podcast to grow our audience and continue to grow our brand. And that’s why we started Branded. So I got to ask you, I think this has been an amazing conversation that we had today. I think we covered a lot as far as monetizing a podcast and kind of opening our eyes to a variety of different ways to look at podcast monetization, right?
Sara Lohse [00:20:49]:
Absolutely. And hopefully people listening to this will see the other side of it. See the less obvious side of it?
Larry Roberts [00:20:57]:
Well, I think it is less obvious, but if we just kind of look at it from a different perspective, you go, oh, why did I see that in the first place?
Sara Lohse [00:21:06]:
That’s kind of what I’m saying with I have that marketing background, so I see it. But if you don’t have a marketing lens to look through, you’re only seeing it through a podcaster lens. So try on different lenses, look at things from different perspectives. Listen to different shows that have those different perspectives, because that’s how you’re going to find new ideas that will work for you.
Larry Roberts [00:21:27]:
But first and foremost, listen to Branded. So if you found some value in this episode, be sure and hit that subscribe button so we can continue to bring you these episodes each and every week. Thank you so much for listening. I’m Larry Roberts.
Sara Lohse [00:21:39]:
I’m Sara, and we’ll see you next week. Bye.